Gwladys Verchllewelyn ^2,3

   Another name for Gwladys was Ddu.

  General Notes:

[Europe_New.FTW] [royalfam.ged] Llywelyn did not marry Joan until 1205 at the EARLIEST, or 1206, if you believe more detaile d sources. Llywelyn did not receive the final third letter from the Pope declaring his bet rothal to the daughter of the King of Man to be void until 1205. Giving a year for conception and birth, if one assume d Gwladys were daughter of Joan, she could not have been born earlier than 1206 or 1207. I f she were older than eight or nine years old in 1215, she could not have been daughter of Jo an. As I stated before, the marriage to Reginald de Braose in 1215 was one of political expe diency, and not one where the were waiting for the girl to come of age so to speak. You' d be relying heavily on the coincidence that Gwladys happened to be in that very narrow rang e between seven before which age she could not even have been betrothed and eight, or nine . Then we have Joan's son and heir David being born BY 1208 gave homage in 1229. If Joa n were indeed married in 1206, and David born in 1208 he cannot have been born later if th e law was followed, that is an awfully tight squeeze to put Gwladys's coincidental birth the re. I still think the claim that Gwladys was daughter of Joan, and that she therefore MUST have b een born in 1207--not before, not after--is doubtful. "Paul C. Reed" rpc5@uswest.net In answer to your question, there was a clear and unambigious statement that Gladys Dhu was t he daughter of Llywelyn and Joan in the chronicle of Adam of Usk. Adam knew the Mortimer fam ily and presumably had access to their archives. While Adam is a late date witness and not altogethe r reliable, he is rather emphatic that Gladys was Joan's daughter. As for another late date testimony of the Mortimer family's descent from Llywelyn, I find th e Visitation of the North prepared c. 1480-1500 states that "Roger [recte Ralph] Mortemer dux it Gladiswiscam filiam principis Wallie." [Reference: Surtees Society, vol. 144, published 19 30, pg. 3. Presumably the point of reciting the extended Mortimer pedigree back to Prince Llywelyn is be cause the English descendants of the Mortimer family c. 1480-1500 believed that Gladys was th e legitimate daughter of Prince Llywelyn, by his wife, Joan. Adam of Usk and the Visitation of the North aside, I believe the best evidence of Gladys Dhu' s parentage is the fact that Gladys' father, Llywelyn, released two castles which he had in f ree marriage with his wife, Joan, to Gladys' husband, Ralph de Mortimer. I posted a transcri pt of Llywelyn's charter to Ralph de Mortimer on the newsgroup. If you need help finding th e transcript, please let me know. Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah E-mail: royalancestry@msn.com If I read this right are you saying that as there was an ongoing dispute with the Mortimers o ver Knighton and Norton, Llywelyn may have decided to cut his losses and give away the proper ties with Gwladys. The pragmatic value of such an act would have overridden the issue of he r maternity. It is my understanding that legally Llywellyn could have given the properties aw ay with the consent of Joan, anyway. Also in 1229, Gwladys Dhu accompanied her brother as widow of Reginald de Braose for the purp ose of negotiations in London for her to become bride of Ralph Mortimer? If this is the case , we cannot draw any conclusions about her maternity from this event. Cheers Rosie "Rosie Bevan" cbevan@paradise.net.nz Two major pieces of evidence point to Joan as being Gladys' mother. [GMacGen@aol.com] Giles tells us that Peter C. Bartrum's _Welsh Genealogies_ [table Gruffud d ap Cynan 4] gives the mother of Gwladys Ddu as Tangwystl. Here is what is shown in Peter C . Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies, page 446, Gruffudd ap Cynan 4: Iorwerth Drwyndwn ab Owain Gwynedd m Margred f. Madog Bl ap C 3 | Llywelyn d. 1240 1 Joan d. King John m. 1205 a Tangwystl f. Llywarch Goch LL. Ho. 1 | Gwladus Ddu d. 1251 1 Reginald de Braose d. 1228 2 Ralph II Mortimer d. 1246 Kenneth Harper Finton Editor and Publisher THE Plantagenet CONNECTION __________________________________________ HT Communications PO Box 1401 Arvada CO 80001 VOICE: 303-420-4888 FAX: 303-420-4845 http:HTCommunications.orghomepage.htm KHF333@AOL.com

  Noted events in her life were:

• Record Change, 17 Dec 2002. ^2,3

Gwladys married Ralph De Mortimer, son of Roger De Mortimer and Isabel De Ferrieres, in 1230 in England ².^,3 (Ralph De Mortimer was born in 1190 in Wigmore, Herefordshire, England,^2,3 died on 6 Aug 1246 in Wigmore, Herefordshire, England ^2,3 and was buried in Wigmore, Herefordshire, England ^2,3.)

Gwladys next married Reginald De Braose, son of William De Braose and Maud Matilda De Saint Valery, before 1221 in Wales ².^,3 (Reginald De Braose was born in Bramber, Sussex, England,^2,3 died on 9 Jun 1228 in Brecon, Breconshire, Wales ^2,3 and was buried in Brecon, Breconshire, Wales ^2,3.)